"Has there been any contact with the authors of those two posts..."
Absolutely not. I've seen how they treat people.
"Sadly it seems neither of us have the enthusiasm for this task"
You're misunderstanding. I'm not asking if you're willing to do it *instead* of me, I'm asking if you're willing to do it *with* me. I suppose I have my answer now, though.
Thank you again for your ideas and thoughtful consideration. :-)
]]>Is silence better than an undiplomatic response?
Silence is better than any response that isn't nice, honest, and helpful.
If so, isn't that effectively going to kill off that mailing list?
Only if people can't be nice, honest, and helpful. If they can't, then good riddance.
"...topic drift..."?:
One of my central concerns is the assumption that "not unpleasant" means the same thing to insiders as to other people, especially to newbies.
'... surely basic principles of "don't be unpleasant, and if you see unpleasant behavior, call it out" apply.?'
I saw some unpleasant behavior, called it out, and look where it landed me. Many won't even concede that the behavior I called out was unpleasant in the first place.
"...your original post was likely written in anger..."
Shame then outrage. I went in imagining myself as needing help. "What makes you think...?" demands that I prove myself with the assumption that I must meet a standard to be taken seriously. The second quote is downright humiliation.
"...really don't seem to be a constructive, encouraging, helpful way to phrase things."
My intent wasn't to encourage. My intent was to express my feelings and observations while imagining myself a Perl newbie.
"Would it not be more productive to sign up and create the Perl category to kick things off, rather than leaping to conclusions about people being repelled by the culture?"
I don't know. Would you be willing to do that so we can find out?
I'm not merely railing on obnoxious answers; I think they should be eliminated completely. I won't join a list that tolerates obnoxious answers and is populated by people prone to "hate-fest spirals". The Perl community doesn't have an "empathy" deficit; it has an antisocial behavior surplus.
Go to http://discourse.codenewbie.org/categories . Scan the list. Perl isn't there. Not at all. Are the languages there better than Perl? No, they're not. If they aren't repelled by the language itself, what repels them? I'm asserting that it's Perl *culture*. We may think we're OK, but from the outside it's easy to see us as antique, pompous, and arrogant elitists who can't even treat each other with kindness and respect.
I can't comment on b.p.o ... again. If anybody can, please point the author of the original post to this response, please:
Hi. I'm the moderator of that perl-beginners list. It may not seem like it, but it's way better than it used to be, believe me. In general I think it would be better to focus on providing better, more empathetic answers, rather than railing on the obnoxious answers -- because doing that just turns into a hate-fest spiral that's even more off-putting.
If you'd like to help with those better, more empathetic answers, please feel free to join the list. Thanks.
]]>A few years ago I might would have agreed with you. I unconsciously imagined newbies as thick skinned, confident, male, Caucasian, autodidacts like myself. Like yourself, I probably would have evaluated communications in terms of whether they were defensible rather than whether they were off-putting.
I think your observation about burnout is extremely relevant to this discussion. Burnout implies that someone doesn't want to be doing what they are doing. This colors everything they do or say. It is extremely toxic to everyone, but especially newbies with low self-confidence.
I am motivated, patient, and make time to help other people with Perl. Your suggestions are good ones and I would pursue them if I felt they were the best way I can improve Perl culture. I instead actively reach out, join, and try to help groups that might benefit from my Perl expertise.
I'm scrutinizing Perl culture after communicating with people who *aren't like me*. To many of them mailing lists and IRC are what snail-mail and gopher are to us. I can't in good conscience expect them to adopt our current ways only to get repelled by what they find.
I'm not complaining because I want to tear down our community nor individuals within it. I just have resource limits and can't *both* actively share Perl *and* fix our mailing list. We can make Perl attractive to more people. TIMTOWTDI and this is mine.
"Is there a reason why you think one CPU is better than another?"
"your code exhibits many bad elements, and you don't seem to apply all the advice I've been giving you. Please go over http://perl-begin.org/tutorials/bad-elements/ , read it and internalise it."
Condescending, abusive advice is worse than no advice at all. There's no way I'd send a beginner into that. Nobody should have to learn like that. Seeing it ruined my afternoon. Maybe I should have read more of the FAQ:
"Who owns this list? Who do I complain to?"
This is a FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTION?
"Think Before Posting!"
This isn't even a question but the "answer":
"Please always think before you write; when you write you are taking the time of over a thousand people."
is telling.
So come on in newbies. You're stupid. You fill us with contempt. Get ready to complain. And most of all, don't waste our precious time.
]]>I'm not sure how to compare IRC, Perlmonks, and Twitter because they're so different from one another. I'm a Perl developer and I happen to follow some pretty influential Perl developers and organizations on Twitter. A search for #perl on Twitter returns uncountable results.
What I'm pointing out is that Perl doesn't get tweeted about in conjunction with important developer organizations. Python and JavaScript are tweeted about in conjunction with them. This suggests that these organizations are getting no active support from the Perl community. I'm working to change this.
]]>Ok, how about these:
Are we a support group for disenfranchised Perl developers or advocacy group for all developers? If we want people to join our community then we need to reach out and do some good in theirs.
]]>I was outraged! When I got home and "informed" my wife she calmly, and patiently asked me how I could possibly not know that. It has been a rough path of introspection since then.
So how did I not know?
The last one might be the most important. I hypothesize that sexism is so bad that women don't want to alienate the "good" men by daring to lump them in with the "bad" men. I'm a middle-aged, white man. I'm not rich. My great power is in influence and as many in my demographic know:
"...with great power there must also come -- great responsibility!." ~ Stan Lee
Expecting trusted, "good" men in our life to do more isn't too much to ask. Men have a responsibility to do good not just be good - no excuses! Sexism isn't rare. Men don't have to donate money, join organizations, or go on a crusade to make a difference. The least we need to do is pay attention to other men, and when the time comes (and it will come), speak up or step away.
This whole experience has forced me to own my role as a man. I don't get a free pass because I'm not sexist. I feel like an ass, but now I have my next steps: listen, learn, ask, and listen some more. Beyond that, I have no idea what I'm doing, so I reached out to Women In Linux.
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