Philosophical notes on Dancer, the Perl 5 web framework
Even though I had to let go of web programming for a while now, Dancer is still my favorite framework. Bad attitudes do not exist in Dancer, we don't trash anyone and we're not just polite and respectful towards each other (and by "each other" I'm definitely including all developers _and_ users), but we're also very attentive to one another.
That is how we're able to continue with the project successfully even when one or two core developers are very busy (which happens at times) - as with me right now or Sukria in the past. We're still able to push in new features, serious fixes or even major overhauls when needed.
For example, Dancer has pushed new pure-regex syntax (deprecating the regex path wrapper function we had before) and even provide plugins (w00t! plugins!) and we'll be adding websockets support (omg omg omg *drool*) as well!
Sukria wrote a blog post to share with the Perl community his thoughts on a few issues in Dancer and the development process. If you're interested (and you should be), check it out here.
On a more personal tone, I should say that the culture of trashing each other is something I hoped I left behind at high school. I'm sorry to find some people still enjoy this disgusting habit. Especially utilizing it for marketing. That is, to trash on purpose on order to make your "product" shine.
I personally don't see any room for manipulative bullshit like that in what is supposed to be a community, where you're suppose to support one another.
Gots to do the bloggingz
I'm sorry, I can't agree.
I've dealing with Dancer, and it isn't easy to report a bug and get some attention (and depending on the bug, it's even harder to get a fix).
May be you're talking about other kind of attitudes, but you (Dancer developers) aren't perfect either.
You seem to clobber up a few things:
First of all, easiness to report a bug is not a direct "attitude". Definitely not what I meant when saying "attitude". Difficulties reporting a bug can be caused by a lot of things, such as load on the developers (not finding the time to sit with you on a bug) or no proper mechanism for bug tracking (though we DO have that - so that's definitely not it). If you had a problem reporting a bug without using Github, I'd like to know which bug and fix that.
Secondly, I'm not claiming perfection. There is no perfection. What I'm claiming is an environment where the habit of "trashing" does not exist, and a spirit of cooperation is amongst all developers.
I'm sorry your failure to get a bug report in caused this feeling to disperse.
While some people get off on rudeness and flame wars, my highest respect is for those who try to be kind. Thank you for trying to be civil.
Then why did sukria trash talk about Mojolicious over on use.perl.org? http://use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=43486&cid=69844
Good question.
I reckon this comment probably made him feel like he's simply ripping off code from someone, and I can understand how that would infuriate someone. I remember reading that code and I said "man, that's not right.. no credit, no nothing and feels pointless". That was before I even knew Dancer/Mojolicious or worked on them. Just feels off.
The following comment by melo explains that the code copying was how mojolicious got started. I personally don't care about bringing stuff like that from the past righ now, but if someone would simply fork code I worked hard on and not mention me or my project - I'd be pissed, with good cause.
While on topic, one of the things Sukria wanted to stress about Dancer (and claims that were made against it) was that Dancer doesn't copy code off of anyone.
I'll probably won't be explaining more on this subject. It is IMHO a well-understood comment from a long time ago which has completely irrelevant application in the current discussion.
I was just reading your Dancer cookbook last night and found it very interesting, but had no idea about anything related to your community. A community of civility sounds very good. Unfortunately I have a short fuse, so I should probably stay away from your community, lest it become uncivil. =(
Dancer intends to stay civil, for as long as it is being developed. The simple fact is that otherwise we can't work, so we have to stay civil for our own sake, not just yours. :)
It's a shame my attempt to quiet down incredibly offensive behavior towards us yielded you to stay away from our community. Would you prefer we suffer quietly in the future?
Ok, maybe that comment was from a long time ago, but just below you can see an update from just a few days ago, attacking Sebastian personally. http://use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=43486&cid=72143
These passive aggressive tactics don't work, people still understand that you are secretly trying to attack the opposite faction, you just don't get your point across.
Either you attack for real, or you don't react at all, there is no middleground.
I think you need to re-evaluate what you consider "a personal attack". That was a short anecdote expressing the repeated behavior of a certain person, while backing it up with actual facts (names of specific people and how things went on from there).
The comment was also made after that certain person has been putting a lot of effort on making us feel like shit, even though we personally have _no_ problem whatever with him or his project. We support it and I've often said praises of it.
When you continuously trash someone, at some point they might want to respond. Makes sense to me.
It was an attack, no smooth talking can change that.
In fact i've not even seen a single attack from the other side yet, right now you look like the bad guys, what am i missing?
If this is what you see, you're missing more than I could probably fill in for you. :)
I'm done with this subject.
@Sawyer X: I was only kidding about staying away. Sorry it didn't come across as such.
“We’re polite. We don’t talk trash. Unlike certain other people.” [Everyone knows who those certain others are.]
Am I really the only one who sees the irony here?
I wouldn't constitute that as "trash talk" and you shouldn't either, IMHO. You should view some online-available IRC logs and tweets to understand what "trash talking" is.
Seems like I'm one of the few who see a problem with people being jerks and with saying that it's not cool.
I'm not calling it trash talk.
I know who Sebastian Riedel is.
I'm talking about politeness. One cannot assert that one is polite. That is almost like asserting that one is humble. Whether you are is always up to the reader. At most, you can say that you try to be polite, or humble. (And then you still have to actually be it, in order for your claim to have any weight whatever.)
Also, writing about someone specific (or even just knowing that readers will interrpret your writing as being about someone specific) without mentioning that person’s name is passive-aggressive. Call a spade a spade. If you really want to be more general, then explicitly call the spade you’re not talking about the spade that you’re not talking about.
I can understand the level of irritation that you operate under when you’re in the cross hairs of someone like Sri.
Don’t let that make you lose your cool. Be honest. If you are angry, be honest still and don’t pretend otherwise. Justified anger, in justified measure, is justified.** And let the facts speak: link or paste.
** “To be mad at someone – that is easy. To be mad at the right person, for the right reason, at the right time and at the right degree – that is not easy.” —Aristotle (the acient one, not me)
Dancer developers don't use warketing.
The whole story is about that. It's pretty simple :)
Now, I have a *lot* of commit to push (Yay), don't expect any reaction from me about this story anymore.
It was about emptyness from the very begining, it doesn't deserve more attention. So let's WSC ;-)
Rock on.
All I have to say is I love Dancer, and I have found the devs to be quite responsive.